Cataclysmic Effects

All this talk of patch 3.3 has made me think a lot about how these changes will be moot in a few months (6’ish?) with the release of Cataclysm.  More specifically how it will effect Relentless as a guild and its effects on Leftovers.  I should probably explain what Leftovers is for those who don’t know.

(Click to skip ahead if you know how Leftovers works.)

Their mission statement…

Our goal is to provide a raiding organization that provides a diverse group of people throughout the community a chance to experience high-end content, as well as one that rises to the highest levels of experience and skill. Our focus is on both fun and effective raids, for all members of the Silver Hand community.

I like to over complicate things so I’m gonna try to explain how Leftovers works without causing you to lose your biscuits.

Leftovers & the Charter…
First of all Leftovers has no guild affiliation.  You are not required to be in any guild to raid with Leftovers (hence the name) and we’ll talk more about this later.  Leftovers raiding groups are called Charters.  Each Charter has its own name (in our case its Relentless) and its own set of leads (Relentless’ lead is me, some have a lot of leads, some don’t).  The leads from each charter schedule their own raids and are responsible for slotting it.  Leads only have power over their own charter and can’t slot or schedule raids for the others.

The Raider…
He or she can signup for any number of raids for any number of charters and thanks to coding behind the scenes the Leftovers site it will tell other charters that Player_A is slotted with Relentless for ICC25 on Friday.  That way the raider doesn’t have to worry about getting slotted for multiple raids of the same type (causing extreme frustration and raging anger).

The Loot…
The loot system is one of the best things about Leftovers.  Points are split into two categories, 10man and 25man raids.  You earn points for being at the raid at the beginning, at the end, and for every hour spent on the raid.  The awesome part… is that your points carry over from charter to charter.

Raid with Aetherstorm on Wednesday for ICC25 and earn say 10 pts.  On Saturday you can raid with Relentless for ToC25 and your 10 pts from Tuesday carry over to our raid.  This allows a person a GREAT amount of flexibility in their schedule if they are unable to commit to certain times every week.  How points actually spent can be read about here in the LO FAQ.

Just to give you some idea of the scope of Leftovers, the pic to the right is the number of raids posted for JUST Monday the 21st of December.

This Week: 108 raids with 1830 characters and 1675 loot drops.
Sunday, December 20: 19 raids with 275 characters and 316 loot drops.

I hope that explains how Leftovers works (feel free to comment with any questions).

(This is where you skip to from above!)

Now that you understand how Leftovers works I can talk about the Cataclysmic Effects!

I mentioned above that you aren’t required to be in any guild to run with Leftovers (or more specifically any charter).  Some of the charters are guild based though and you have a better chance of getting slotted if you are from the guild that is leading that charter.  The Aetherstorm charter for example is very guild based and when Relentless first formed as a charter (almost 2 yrs ago) I weighted the guild tag heavily when I did slotting.

Most of the charters however are gatherings of a large number of different guilds.  Which is fine and awesome and the main point of Leftovers, raiding without requiring you to leave your guild.  Two of our very prominent raiders Adnar and Shiningstar have been raiding with us since August of 08, but the guild they are in is very family friendly which is big for them since they share their accounts with their kids (which is legal).  Relentless is family friendly (if your kids are 21+) which makes it NOT ideal for them in any sense.

Cataclysm wiggles its way into our hearts and presents us with the neat guild leveling system.  There are a few different ways for a guild to gain XP but my guess is that boss kills will be the most heavily weighted.  This undermines the basic concept of Leftovers, which Blizzard sees as a glorified PUG.

I don’t think Leftovers will be destroyed or even really hurt.  I do think it will see a big shift in slotting decisions and guild tags.  It is likely the bonuses (decreases repair cost alone) would be enough to cause people to shift to the main guild of the charter.  I think charter leads will take a bigger look at taking someone who is a bit sub par over someone with some skill (but no guild tag).

This addition will effect Leftovers for certain (in good ways I’d like to hope) but what about all the little guilds across countless servers that have similar ways of working.  Will this be an end to smaller guilds?  Most of those people migrating to larger casual or raid guilds?

What do you think?


20 thoughts on “Cataclysmic Effects

  1. Conifer says:

    Blizzard is saying that for a group to earn guild experience points, you will need to have 80% of the people in a particular guild. So 4/5, 8/10, 20/25. Those guilds attempting to level, of which I’m sure Relentless is one, will be forced to slot 80% of the raid from within guild.

    The question that will need to be asked by each Charter Lead is: What is better? Quicker, more efficient raiding with the best people? Or slower progress but all the while earning guild experience?

    My take is this. Leftovers will remain active. People like the point system and the website is convenient for tracking the points. The top progress guilds will absolutely shift to slotting 80% in-guild. A lot of the people in smaller guilds will be absorbed into the larger guilds.

    It’s interesting to me that this guild experience change is nothing but an advantage to 99% of the servers out there. Only on Silver Hand where we have this PUG raiding system will it have both pluses and minuses.

  2. xeonio says:

    Aye, Silver Hand will certainly feel the effects more than other servers but I think lots of servers have smaller guilds like Silent Serenity (Shindig and Addy’s guild). Guilds that do 10man stuff but join up with a variety of different guilds or have alliances for 25man stuff. What do they do if they can’t move to another guild?

    I’m sure it’ll fluctuate between now and then but as of last Friday we had 8 people who were NON guildies.

    …On second though I’m gonna edit what I say for the first time to keep myself out of some fire but just to say it would be slightly difficult as to who would stay and who would go.

  3. Tagra says:

    I’m really not looking forward to this. I like the idea of having guild levelling, but the 80% slotting rule is just bullshit in my opinion.

    My husband, myself and a couple of our RL friends move from game to game and make guilds, then do with them what we can. It’s fun to us to have the extra challenge of trying to advance a guild with 4 or 5 people. EQ2 was disappointing because we quickly reached a point where it was impossible to advance without a large number of members to take the raid quests.

    If WoW let us level our guild (slowly) by raiding with other people, that would be fine with us. It would be a neat challenge to see how far we could get. Instead, not only is it impossible to do anything on our own, but we’re actively blocked from raiding with others because of the attendance limits on exp :/. It’s bullshit.

  4. Shiningstar says:

    Your ‘guild leveling system’ link isn’t working, Xeo. I haven’t read a ton about the guild experience thing but I think it’s going to be interesting to see how it affects our little guild. Our members raid with many different Leftovers charters as well as Harum Scarum Raiding, another alliance of sorts that doesn’t require guild membership. Before we raided with Leftovers, we were in a raiding alliance called The Gathering, which comprised 4-5 different guilds and one unified points system.

    There are going to be many people who may flock to the bigger guilds for just those reasons that you’ve stated, to get the guild achievements and somewhat guarantee themselves a slot in a raid. However…and I can’t believe I’m saying this, but achievements aren’t everything. Lowered repair costs? I have plenty of gold and can make more if I need to. In fact, I love farming. I can prostitute out my JC/enchanting business if need be. I have friends who came with me from Star Wars Galaxies to play with me on our server. They’re in my guild. When my old guild fell apart, we moved to Silent Serenity together. When others complain about their guild drama, it’s wonderful being in a small guild because tbh we don’t have any (hence the guild name, get it?). I know each of my guild members.

    So I’m with Tagra. Let’s hope Blizzard comes up with a better solution for the small family-and-friend type guilds.

  5. Tagra says:

    Exactly. I mean, I’m a huge achievement whore, but if our guild is too small to get achievements, oh well that sucks.

    The thing that upsets me is the fact that we might *have* to switch guilds because of this attendance thing, because otherwise we’ll be screwing the raid guild out of their advancement. It’s bullshit.

  6. Norhia says:

    I pretty much run with the Aetherstorm charter, because… well… it’s heavily guild based; so I may not be the est of judges, but for a lot of the scrappy mix and match charters, why would they really care all that much if the guild they are not heavily invested in is leveling? The possible guild talents listed from Blizz con really aren’t all THAT amazing that I would break off from a sucessful charter or sucessful raiding system to get my hands on a WHOLE EXTRA 10% GOLD OH MY GOSH. AND WE CAN SUMMON THE WHOLE RAID SO PEOPLE CAN HAVE EVEN MORE REASON TO STALL AND DICK AROUND BEFORE RAID TIME! Be still my heart! Or, my 40,000 repair bill is now only 36,000. Don’t mind all those extra wipes from taking under geared guildie tanks : D
    Maybe if they brought out some really significant benefits, rather than “Oh. That’s rather nice.” I’ll be a bit more on board with it.

    Of course, if it were that big of an issue on an LO run, people could always talk with their Gms in advance, drop guild for their LO run, and pop back in later. Hell, we used to kick members of Aether out then bring them back in and restore their guild status for amusement. It’s nothing all that tricky. You just have to not have the fun /g support of your friends for a few hours.

  7. Addy says:

    Of course, if it were that big of an issue on an LO run, people could always talk with their Gms in advance, drop guild for their LO run, and pop back in later. Hell, we used to kick members of Aether out then bring them back in and restore their guild status for amusement. It’s nothing all that tricky. You just have to not have the fun /g support of your friends for a few hours.

    I might be willing to do that.

  8. This could easily be a guild killer. Before Dar and I xferred to SH, we helped run a guild on our previous server. The guild DIED a horrible death because of a huge influx of new members that simply put didn’t get vetted well enough before we let them in. I can easily see that happening to larger guilds as well as the Mom & Pop guilds out there if they’re not careful to maintain their g-inviting integrity and ideals. IMO I don’t want Relentless to get bigger simply because Blizz has added this silly little guild leveling thing… I’d prefer to actually log on and recognize the names in guild chat than to log on and think, Where the fuck am I, and who the hell are all these people?!

  9. Conifer says:

    I don’t see that happening, Betsy. I see it going down more like what happened with me. I was in a 1-person guild for years. I liked the guild bank all to myself and I still had a solid raid spot with Relentless. I joined last week for a guild achievement but that’s basically the same thing. People that have raided for a long time will be given the option: join the guild for a more permanent raid slot. Or stay in your guild and you will be slotted when there is room in the 5 open spots for non-guildies. 90% of people will join the guild in my completely non-scientific, out-of-thin-air estimation.

  10. xeonio says:

    Yea, I don’t think she thinks it’ll happen to Relentless. We’re not opposed to bringing in raiders that have been with us forever but we won’t suddenly invite a large number of people. We’ve NEVER taken ‘group applications’ from people. We certainly wouldn’t be starting now.

    I do think she’s right on it killing a lot of smaller guilds though that decide to merge in order to take benefit of the new system.

  11. Conifer says:

    I guess we will have to wait and see the guild “talent tree”. Something like mass rez is nice, but not earth-shattering (especially for 10-man guilds).

    If they ever added something like “an extra talent point to all guild members” then it would almost become mandatory.

  12. xeonio says:

    Its not just about the actual talent tree… its about raiding. I think most guilds will be more apt to slot someone who is a bit weaker but has a tag over someone who doesn’t. In order to keep raiding that person is met with the decision to move on or not. This decision is made even easier if the person spends most of their logged on time raiding with the other guild.

  13. Kackler says:

    in my opinion, i think we are getting too big to fast. i agree that we should stop adding new people unless they show relentless that they are willing to do anything as a raider, and have raided with us for a few months before they are added

  14. xeonio says:

    That would work if we raided w/in guild only but we don’t. I don’t even think of Relentless as a true guild in the sense most of the time, we’re more a conglomeration of people.

    Lots of peeps that are friends w/each other and who like to hangout in the same channel (all adults) but I’d say 1/3rd of the guild doesn’t actually raid in the main group.

    Plus you have a lot of friends and family and casuals that are guilded that contribute to the atmosphere. Bring a different light to the situation. Eldor and Tapol both have lots of family in guild and I think Cap is Psi’s brother or something. Just like if one of your siblings played we’d bring ’em in just with the caveat that there is no guaranteed raid slot.

  15. kackler says:

    i agree with you xeo with the highest consent. but when we as a guild have gotten to the point where when i log on i don’t know half the people logged on. this makes me feel like someone small in a guild that i’ve been a part of since almost day one.

  16. Slyvert says:

    Well, you see if you raid with Relentless, you can’t really raid with any other charter. Otherwise you get screwed, therefore information in the above blog is invalid.

  17. xeonio says:

    Sly, besides the random 12yr old shit you pulled you weren’t to bad. You were far more appreciated than your ring leader Zanixeros. We gave you the chance to find a place to belong in our family and you took that for granted.

    You were raiding just fine with us and then you applied to another raiding guild (as in to leave our guild and join theirs). That is why you were removed. Why would you need our guild tag if you don’t want it? Plus your application to them literally had insulting comments about us in it.

    The only one of your 3 person crew that said anything to us was your shaman friend who I was rude to when he said he was moving on (to be with his friends) and for that, pass on my apology for being a dick to him.

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